"Enough is Enough... This can't go on"
The words of Gordon Brown this morning about Zimbabwe. But what is it exactly that the Prime Minister proposes to do? That's right, nothing. He's so keen to call David Cameron a 'do nothing' politician with regard to the economy - a charge which is so preposterous as to be hardly worth debate - but he is open to the charge himself with regard to Zimbabwe. All he does is talk.
Yesterday, LibDem leader Nick Clegg courageously became the first UK politician to speak out in favour of military action. Surely that is now the only way forward. South Africa must wake up to its responsibilities and lead a military force to rescue the country. One would hope that the IMF and World Bank have plans stashed away somewhere which would take over the economic management of the economy and slowly put it back on its feet. But that can only happen if Mugabe is ousted. And the only people that can do that are Africans themselves.
40 comments:
Whether or not something should be done about Mugabe it shouldn't be Britain that takes the initiative. Our colinial history makes it very unwise. In public at least, this is one issue where Brown should stick to rhetoric.
Enough with the foreign military adventures already.
It's all spherical objects.
If South Africa wants to support a state which allows these things to happen, we should let them.
Talking about military intervention is for idiots when you look at the size of the country and the distances.
And then when you have intervened, who has the logistical support to feed the people?
Answer: Not us.
Let Africa learn from its mistakes: it obviously needs a few more millions dead to do so.
Vcallous? Yes.
Realistic? Yes.
Has any aid to Zimbabwe achieved anything?
Yes: kept Mugabe in power.
What, Iain, will the Chinese do should South Africa invade?
Would they and their Russian friends just stand by and watch?
Dangerous talk. I do not like leaving the poor people to suffer but Madasafish does have a point.
Panorama had a programme a couple of weeks ago about OUR aid or Medical Aid being sold on the black market the 'gifts' having been sold to the shop owners by the government of that African Country.
The Labour Government absolutely love to shout about the aid to Africa. But do absolutely nothing to ensure that the aid reaches the people who need it! They are as guilty as the rotten governments and regimes throughout Africa.
Perhaps a new Colonisation may help the poor people of Africa. But on that I come back to my first sentence..The Chinese. They are taking over most of Africa, it appears.
So we have done what we can, without the necessary checks and balances by our rotten and incompetent government, but we cannot do anything else.
Brown is just spouting words which are meaningless. Perhaps he should show us his courage by flying to Zimbabwe and meeting with Mugabe face to face. Let us see if he has any bottle. Put the question back to him
WHAT are YOU going to do about it MR BROWN?
International law & the UN Charter is unambiguous that, short of proven genocide, or them being an external threat, invasion is a war crime. The rule of law is not a luxury it is a necessity & should not be lightly dumped.
Our record of participating in the racial genocide, drtg running, sex slavery & organlegging of our "police" (formerly our KLA freedom fighters) in Kosovo & bringing about the deaths of probably a million in Iraq does not suggest that our intervention would improve the situation. It would be more likely to make it worse. UK political analysis of Zimbabwe barely goes beyond saying that Sir Robert Mugabe is now the baddie & Tsvangaria thus the goodie - I suspect the truth is more complicated.
Must agree with my fellows on this one.
So much so that I think you should take this silly post down. And the Lib Dems should take Nick Clegg down while we're about it.
Cholera is rife. Urban residences are without water. There is a total lack of effective government. Inflation is at 231,000,000%. A tyrant holds on grimly to power. Famine is widespread. Life in Zimbabwe is cheap.
The West does not stand idly by and many individuals and agencies are doing what they can to try and alleviate the suffering of the Zimbabwe people. But their hands are tied because Mugabe and his henchmen do little to help humanitarian movements and charities make progress.
What as observers of the chaos and the disaster can we do? We are not powerless and there are both practical and symbolic actions that we can take both to help Zimbabwe's stricken population and to demonstrate to the military backed Mugabe regime that nothing can be normal in our relations with his benighted country. Which brings me to cricket...
Can you believe that over the past two weeks properly sanctioned and approved international cricket has been taking place in Harare? The full international Sri Lankan cricket team has played five One Day Internationals against Zimbabwe in the country's capital. There is no secret about this grotesque and offensive parody of the so-called "Spirit of Cricket". Under the auspices of cricket's governing body the International Cricket Council "Sri Lanka Cricket" has seen fit to play sport in Zimbabwe at a time when the country is in total turmoil.
Behind tightly guarded gates cricket was played whilst in the city and beyond there was starvation, death and destruction. This grotesque charade brings the good name of sport and of cricket in particular into disrepute. The Sri Lankan Government and cricket authorities have done themselves no favours in the wider world. And the International Cricket Council (ICC) have not only seen fit to authorise this charade but have even sent a delegation to Harare to watch the cricket and to
"...establish the current state of cricket in Zimbabwe as it relates to the management and development of the game and also to conduct an assessment of the policies and programmes executed with the view to restoring the senior team to Test cricket."
What planet do the apparatchiks of the ICC come from? Can they seriously believe that there is any case for playing international cricket with and in Zimbabwe at this time?
"What do they know of cricket who only cricket know?"
Few people understand that only death will prise Zim from Mugabe's grip; he's a Chief, and the tribal tradition of Chiefdom demands it. There is zero chance he will voluntarily go into exile, and he will be killed before he allows himself to be taken prisoner to face trial.
South Africa's reluctance is because her leaders realise that Mugabe's death is now necessary, but that he is one of Africa's Great Men, revered almost as much as Mandela, for his part in Zim's independence struggle.
Can Monsanto not just invade and take over, sort out all the infrastructure and get the country working again?
This is nuts. It's not just Sir Robert Mugabe; it's the whole of ZANU-PF. Another Iraq would be in the making - and then it would all be South Africa's fault yet again.
People get the Governments they deserve, or sometimes, the one they voted for. Zimbabwe is no exception. People talk as if Mugabe suddenly appeared and went bad. He didn't. He signed a raft of agreements that would enshrine democracy and equity, that he subsequently trashed.
He relied upon core voters to give him reign. Black Zimbabweans didn't stand up to the erosion of democracy because it suited many of them. Many were cowardly and venal. In reality it has reverted to its pre-Colonial state,i.e., tribal and violent. At the time of the Lancaster House agreement agreements were put in place to assure a peaceful transition to majority rule and millions of aid was pumped into the country.
Let's not wring our hands in guilt eh?
Every nation has a right to self-determination. They also have a right to destroy themselves.
Maybe Gordons got it right for once- talk a lot but do nothing. This is an African problem and could be resolved by them if South Africa had the bottle. The idea of military intervention by the UK let along throwing more money after bad(bribes) beggers belief
"Enough is Enough... This can't go on"
That is exactly how I feel about the Brown regime. We have to get rid of our own unelected leader before we can even think about sorting out Mugabe.
Chris Paul, I've just been to read your "blog" and I must say, I feel sad now that I did. Why on earth do you waste your time writing such utter nonsense?
is mugabe still in receipt of an 'honorary' knighthood ?
Mugabe has been 'protected' by Teaboy Mbeki for years. There will not be a solution while he is still involved. Incidentaly there are many in South Africe who want to do the same landgrab from the white that has wrecked Zimbabwe. White farmers are being murdered in South Africa and it is rarely reported.
Is there a source for that Theo, as we say on Wikipedia? Very concerning indeed if true. But you have to also look at the huge black poverty that continues in RSA and marvel there hasn't been a revolution so far. The only way the ANC have kept that down BTW is by electing Zuma, but he seems to actually be quite sensible compared to the ludicrous Mbeki.
What is sadly clearer by the day is how utterly, fantastically lacking in judgement Mandela truly was in annointing Mbeki as his successor. Mandela suffered greatly and I don't take that away from him, but his reputation as a sort of combination saint and genius is ill-deserved.
I hold no brief for Broon, but to start by complaining that all he does is talk, and end by saying that only Africans can remove Mugabe, is a bit bloody silly, isn't it? Both are true, but only one is a useful observation. If all Broon can do is talk, we'd better hope he deploys a more silver tongue than usual.
I have argued for a long time South Africa should live up to its responsibilities and intervene. If they do, it is long overdue, however, I am not holding my breath.
S Africa will never invade Zim.
For lots of reasons.
But simply:
SA farms are run by whites. Politically a hot issue for the ANC but practically the only way of feeding the country.
Invade Zim and you need to sort out the farms. Practically the only way to do that and feed anyone is to restore the WHITE farmers dispossessed under Mugabe.
For the ANC that is a political impossibility.
So anyone with half a brain and some knowledge can see SA cannot do anything because to be effective in ZIM they will create a political crisis inSA.
Do nothing then.
Any talk of invasion means the talker is ignorant and has doen zero anlaysis
Iain, we cannot afford to crash about the world as the armed police of choice - it may give remove gangsters like Mugabe, but it also gives a recruiting opportunity for terrorists. There has to be a politcal solution or an internal Zimbabwian solution, perhaps with the help of South Africa and the West. But you can just imagine the spin when or if white troops are sent in to 'liberate' Zimbabwe from a black leader.
...especially if they are from the old colonial power.
Leaving aside the issue of 'international law' (which, to me, has never been proven to be anything other than victor's justice because the 'losers' or defendents have normally lost and its usually the victor that delivers them to a Court), what exactly can be done?
The two options that immediately present themselves are:
1) a military intervention to overthrow Mugabe and his Zanu-PF cronies
2) the introduction of a deniable hit-squad to eliminate Mugabe
Option 1 poses all sorts of logistical problems and an inevitable count of civilian deaths, especially as 'War veterans' take off their non-uniforms and blend in with the population.
Option 2 would be fine IF, and only if, we had a firm understanding of who would take over if Mugabe were magically removed from the board by a 7.62 Nato round or similar. Without that, we have no idea if the incoming administration would kill more or less people than Mugabe.
But what we do know for certain is that if Mugabe were to die, then a period of blood-letting, score-settling and/or violent looting will ensue.
So how should we proceed?
I heard Brown say that the people are suffering and that he [Mugabe] should step aside.
If only Brown would take his own advice.
Sod off Brown!
Shaun that those claiming to enforce international law are usually are usually engaged in a victor's witchhunt is true. However we should distinguish between that & the basic principles & precedents. Stalin used the appearance of law in his trials, with almost as much contempt for principles as our own leaders have against Milosevic & in support of child sex slavery & dissecting teenagers but that does not mean we do not see the need for uncorrupt law.
Which military is Clegg talking about? We don't have one to send.
Blogger neil craig said...
"Shaun that those claiming to enforce international law are usually are usually engaged in a victor's witchhunt is true. However we should distinguish between that & the basic principles & precedents. Stalin used the appearance of law in his trials, with almost as much contempt for principles as our own leaders have against Milosevic & in support of child sex slavery & dissecting teenagers but that does not mean we do not see the need for uncorrupt law."
That's rather my point: showtrials are about the *appearance* of law, of a fair system, without any actual fairness, without justice. The trial of Milosovic was unjust in that he was so transparently guilty that he obviously could not have been given a 'fair' trial with unbiased jurors and should, therefore, have been dealt with on the battlefield to avoild any awkward challenges to our system.
Stalin cloaked the elimination of his rivals in a legalese smokescreen. People were liquidated for political 'crimes'. Law becme divorced from Justice and was simply a system for the execution of state power. I think, personally, that in those circumstances people have to decide for themselves if they are legitimate laws or if they are instead rules they comply with out of fear of percieved non-compliance.
Uncorrupt law is, unfortunately, in the eye of the beholder.
Mugabe can be removed all it takes is some 20 good men, 20? yes 20,
start it off, make some noise, and the place is ready, just one good spark, and no one will defend him, they want rid of him but can not, they need help,the zimbabwean peolpe are ready for this and it can and should be done, I am ready if you can find another 19 people....
This is just sloganeering, used in the attempt to create the impression that HMG is actually doing something. On Wednesday evening he also borrowed the 'yes, we can' combination of empty words. I'm afraid this is nothing but play-ground politics, directed towards illiterate products of bog-standard comprehensives.
Oh the irony of suggesting that SA sorts out zimbabwe in the few years before SA itself becomes a new zim.
I hope the lefty idiots (are you listening, hain?) who "freed" SA are happy about the damage they have wrought in that once fine country.
If Nick Clegg was volunteering to lead a force of MPs into Zimbabwe, I would call him foolhardy, but courageous. As is, safe in the Westminster village, he is foolhardy, but a blustering sanctimonious, warmonger.
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the springbok Club turned up.
Military action is unnecessary, merely turning off the electricity supply from South Africa will bring down the Mugabe regime within days.
If our forces are sent in I trust that Nick Clegg will volunteer to go with them, carrying a gun.
The African tradition of Paramount Chiefs or Kings is alive and well in South Africa too. It is just that they get anointed by unbalanced elections. There is no appetite in the entirely corrupted ANC to depose Mugabe and probably the military force does not really exist either.
Zimbabwe is simply South Africa twenty years on. One simply awaits the right demagogue to set the final process of decay into action. The movement to throw the white farmers off the farms is well advanced with dozens murdered each year.
Despairing Liberal: I note (1) that you apparently registerd only to troll within Iain's requirements and (2) that you link to no blog. So give over with your idle crit.
Iain is utterly wrong on this. As many of his friends agree.
If Brown called for military intervention it would boost Mugabe's already strong nationalist, anti-imperialist, pan-african credentials.
It would be a huge mistake. It is a huge mistake that Iain Dale advocates. Why should I not comment along those lines? Iain's Tory friends are doing so.
PS You're welcome to comment over at my blog. Or are you a single purpose vehicle?
When people come to the U.K. as asylum seekers, from one country or another, when the numbers reach several hundred, or thousand why do we not take some of the most able of the young men (of military age) and give them some military training, so when their country is as close to collapse as zimbabwe they can go back to their country and over-throw the existing ruinous government, while those talking about zimbabwe who do not agree with military confrontation, you do not seem to know how close it (Zim) is to disaster and collapse, the police and military will not put up a fight, and a good shock at it happening they would join the opposition.
They just need a helping hand, as many a Shona (Mugabe's tribe) people have told me, "if we had the balls of the Matabele, we could get rid of him!"
Shaun if you have any evidence whatsoever that Milosevic was "transparently guilty" of anything you should have presented it to NATO's court who would have been deeply grateful since in 4 1/2 years of "trial" they could produce none. Indeed that is why he was poisoned which is rather closer to the battlefield killing you called for than any judicial process.
The only people transparently guilty of genocide & war crimes there are every NATO leader, almost every British politician from John Major to Clare Short & the corrupt journalists & editors of BBC, ITN & almost all of our national press.
I disagree with you & think it unlikely our democracy would survive if all these thousands of lying, genocidal, organlegging, child raping war criminals was set swinging from the lamposts without trial. They should get a fair & open trial first.
And another thing.
Who will replace Mugabe?
The MDC?
How can we know they will be any better?
Based on African experiences, they will be better for about 2 years and then do the same as Mugabe and his regime.
So Ian , before you speak rubbish, lets have a COHERENT plan and not another Iraq/Afghanistan seat of the pants charade.
"One would hope that the IMF and World Bank have plans stashed away somewhere which would take over the economic management of the economy and slowly put it back on its feet"
How amusingly naive of you - just like the plans the Americans had for the post-war reconstruction of Iraq.
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